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From: sam
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 5:25 PM
To: Phaedrus
Subject: Re: Mama vicks hot dog sauce
Mama vicks hot dog sauce
Sam,
I cannot find “Mama Vick’s”. The closest name that I can find is “Mama Vicki’s” in Port Huron MI. Is that it?
See: Mama Vicki's Coney Island
Phaed
From: sam
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 5:25 PM
To: Phaedrus
Subject: Re: Mama vicks hot dog sauce
Yes that is the place
Hello Sam,
Mama Vicki’s Coney Island began as “Coney Island Lunch.” The owners later changed the name to “Mama Vicki’s” in
honor of their mother. Their coneys are different in that they are served “over the top” – the mustard is first,
then the onions, then the coney sauce last. There is some historical information about Mama Vicki’s on these sites:
Roadfood
JHU
I didn’t have any success finding a real recipe for Mama Vicki’s Coney Sauce. It’s a family secret and will likely
stay that way. Best I can do are generic recipes for “Port Huron coney sauce.” See these sites:
All Recipes
Food 52
Phaed
From: Katherine
Sent: Thursday, June 22, 2017 1:00 AM
To: phaedrus@hungrybrowser.com
Subject: Empress of India Sauce Request
Hello Uncle Phaedrus,
Your FAQ regarding recipe help is wonderful and I will try my best to play by the rules.
I have been reading/studying 'Culinary Jotting of Madras' by Wyvern (aka Colonel Arthur Robert Kenney-Herbert)
published originally in 1885. This is a wonderful text that has caused me to have a separate notebook of terms,
translation and research tidbits that support or enhance the writings. But I am stuck.
On page 28 Wyvern is discussing store bought sauces that he relies on when he can't make them himself or is
'in the field' and maximizing what he can. Here's the excerpt:
"...Amongst sauces I consider 'Harvey' the best for general use; Sutton's 'Empress of India' is a strong sauce
with a real flavor of mushrooms..."
While trying to find a recipe (hell, even a true flavor profile) I have continued to stumble across Wynern's EXACT
text in other publications. Yay plagiarism.
Surely in the world of digitization and brilliant foodies there is a recipe somewhere. Do you know of anything
related to this? Any searching tips? Any anything? I will continue my homework on this title and share anything
relevant but maybe your foodie-delving has some insight that will help. Below my signature block is a searchable
link from Google Books.
Please keep in touch, this should/could be a joint project not just some homework thrown on you :)
Excited to hear from you
Kat
Reference Link: Culinary Jottings for Madras, Or, A Treatise in Thirty Chapters on Reformed Cookery for Anglo-Indian Exiles
Hello Kat,
Thank you for writing. This is quite an interesting problem, although I fear we are going to face disappointment in the end.
It’s not unusual to find things called “Empress of India” after 1876. The reason is that Queen Victoria was proclaimed
“Empress of India” in that year at the behest of the Archbishop of Canterbury, Charles Manners-Sutton. The name has been
given to such disparate things as restaurants, varieties of peas or beans, a variety of nasturtium, and also to a sauce
similar to Worcestershire sauce and based on soy sauce. The unusual thing seems to be the repeated connection of the name
“Sutton” to these things named “Empress of India.”
See these sites:
A restaurant in Sutton, UK: Empress of India Restaurant
A type of nasturtium from Sutton Seed & Plant: Sutton's Empress of India Nasturtium
A Sutton variety of pea: Empress of India Pea
A Sutton variety of bean: Empress of India Bean
The sauce is mentioned in: Early History of Soybeans and Soyfoods Worldwide (1024 BCE to 1899 ...) By William Shurtleff and Akiko Aoyagi.
Going back to Wyvern, the full paragraph from Culinary jottings for Madras : a treatise in thirty chapters on reformed cookery for Anglo-Indian exiles, based upon modern English, & continental principles, with twenty-five menus for little dinners worked out in detail by Wyvern is:
Although I am strongly against the use of tinned things to the extent that many allow, there are nevertheless
many articles which you must have in the store-room pickles, sauces, jams, bacon, cheese, . maccaroni, vermicelli,
vinegars, flavouring essences, the invaluable truffle, tart fruits, biscuits, isinglass, arrow-root, oatmeal,
pearl barley, cornflour, olives, capers, dried herbs, and so on. Grated Parmesan cheese (sold in bottles by Crosse
and Blackwell ) should never be forgotten, the salad oil should be the best procurable, and no store-room should
be without tarragon vinegar, anchovy vinegar, French vinegar, and white wine vinegar. Amongst sauces I consider
'Harvey' the best for general use; Sutton’s 'Empress of India,' is a strong sauce with a real flavour of mushrooms;
'Reading' sauce is very trustworthy, and there are others which no doubt commend themselves to different palates,
but I denounce 'Worcester sauce' as too powerful an agent in the hands of the cook. Sutton’s 'essence of anchovies'
is said to possess the charm of not clotting, or forming a stoppage in the neck of the bottle. I have a deep respect
for ketchup, soy, and tomato conserve. Then as special trifles we must not forget caviar, olives farcies, and
anchovies in oil.
This directs us to a British commercial bottled sauce, as does this article: Gourmet India
In the U.K., Worcestershire is pronounced "woost-ur-shire" and Worcestershire Sauce is referred to as "Worcester Sauce,"
pronounced "woos-tah." In many other parts of the world, however, it is referred to as "War-sest-uh-shire" Sauce. And can
you believe, originally it was also touted as a "hair tonic" to grow luxurious hair! It was also an original ingredient
of the popular drink "Bloody Mary" in the United States. Several new imitations of this sauce are now found all over the
world. The British "Empress of India" sauce by Sutton and Tapp's sauce are very similar. Almost all of the American
commercial brands like Lowrys, Heinz, and Kraft's still contain original "tamarind and molasses" formula.
Lea & Perrins' Worcestershire took England by storm and became so popular that it spawned many imitators.
And, Kat, therein lies the rub. Lea & Perrins, creators of the original Worcestershire sauce, kept their recipe secret
for 170 years, although it may have been discovered in 2009, according to this article: Daily Mail.
I have no doubt that Sutton kept their recipe for “Empress of India” sauce a closely held secret as well, and since
the trail has gone cold for “Empress of India”, unlike that of Worcestershire sauce, I am afraid the hopes of locating
a recipe are practically nil. All we know about it is that it is soy sauce based, similar to Worcestershire sauce,
and that it had an additional flavor of mushrooms. What is disturbing is that every mention that I can find of this
sauce is quoted or paraphrased from Wyvern's book. I found no unconnected mention of "Empress of India Sauce." That
Gourmet India article is from 2006 and appears to claim that Empress of India sauce is an extant item. However, the
author of that article seems to me to just be using information takenfrom Wyvern's book. So, why is there no mention
anywhere of Sutton's "Empress of India" sauce except for quotes or borrowings from Wyvern? British and Indian products
are sold on the Web. There is a mention of "Sutton's Essence of Anchovies" in "The Illustrated Guide to The South
Indian Railway" by By South Indian Railway Co., Ltd, copyright 1900. "Essence of Anchovies" and other Sutton's sauces
are mentioned in a newspaper, "Bury and Norwich Post Suffolk, England, 1 Aug 1865." It would appear that the company
has been out of operation for well over a century. There is a "Sutton's Sauce, Worcestershire" mentioned in an ad on
page 8 of the British Columbia Canadian newspaper "The New Westminster News" for Feb 14, 1913.
See: Open Library
"Sutton's Worcestershire Sauce" is also mentioned in a classified ad in "The Maryborough Chronicle, Wide Bay And Burnett Advertiser" (QLD)
Published Aug 22 1889 in Maryborough, Queensland, Australia. It's also in an ad in "The Asbury Park Press" from
Asbury Park, New Jersey on July 10, 1913: "Sutton's" Worcestershire Sauce Bottled in England ; sold elsewhere at 40c a bottle:
Macy's price. 34c
Nov 29 1913 - Bunbury South-Western Herald, Western Australia, Australia
has an ad for Narrogin Trading Agency & Co. that syas:
Have landed ex s.s. Ajana Direct from Manufacturers, England,
Foster Clark's Latest Specialties
....
Also from G. Sutton and Sons, London
The following famous English pickles, sauces, etc.
...
Anchovy Essence (Large Bottles)...
...
Sutton's Famous Worcester Sauce (Equal to Lea & Perrins)...
...
and several other pickles and fish and fowl pastes.
There are numerous copycat recipes for Worcestershire sauce to be found. Here is one: Nourished Kitchen
Beginning with that and somehow adding a mushroom flavor to it might give a result similar to “Empress of India” sauce.
The supposed original Worcestershire sauce recipe is given in that "Daily Mail" article, but even if it is the
authentic original recipe, it would not be surprising to find that it had been later refined.
Yet another British product I found is "Mushroom Ketchup." This table condiment was made with dried mushrooms,
roasted barley malt extract, and spices, and was used to enliven meat dishes. It does not appear to have contained
any soy sauce, but some recipes have cider vinegar. It's still available commercially from Geo. Watkins, but its
popularity has faded somewhat. Since it is a mushroom sauce, a mixture of "mushroom ketchup" and "worcestershire
sauce" might yield a sauce with a taste similar to “Empress of India” sauce, if one could get the ratio right.
The "Harvey Sauce" mentioned by Wyvern is basically a mixture of anchovy sauce, soy sauce, and mushroom ketchup.
For a recipe, see: Harvey Sauce.
"Reading Sauce" appears to have been very popular at one time. There is an article here: Get Reading
and a recipe here: Foods of England
"Moir Sauces" appears to refer to a brand of sauces from John Moir & Son.
There is an ad here: Ad in Ottawa Citizen - Nov 1, 1867 for Moir's sauces
Yet another imitation of Worcestershire Sauce was "Parker Bros London Club Sauce," advertised as being half the price of Lea & Perrins.
If I may speculate, I think that "Empress of India" sauce must have been very similar to "Harvey" sauce in those
three basic ingredients of soy, anchovy essence, and mushroom ketchup. Perhaps it was less successful than Sutton's
Worcestershire Sauce and was dropped by Sutton's after a comparatively short run.
"Tapp's Sauce" appears to have been a hot sauce. See: Hot Sauce ,
Note that "Empress of India" was not a product of "Sutton and Tapp's", but just of Sutton's. "Tapp's Sauce" was a
completely different product from a different company.
If you find any additional information about "Empress of India" sauce, let me know. I will do the same.
Phaed
-----Original Message-----
From: anthony
Sent: Wednesday, June 28, 2017 10:17 AM
To: phaedrus@hungrybrowser.com
Subject: Can you help me find.......
To Hungry Browser:
Can you help me find a recipe?
Lazarus Department Store served a sandwich I can only describe as a "sloppy joe".
It had the same texture, but a completely different taste.
As a child,I loved it!!!! Now as I approach retirement, I look to seek out
some of the great mysteries on Earth.
This recipe is one of them.
Thanks for your help!
Regards,
Anthony
Hello Anthony,
The only thing that I know of that you might be referring to is the "Seven
Hills Burger." Lazarus was also known as Shillito's in some places.
See here for that recipe: Seven Hills Burger
I have two Lazarus cookbooks, and there's nothing else similar in either of them.
Phaed
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